Episode #1 - Claire Butler - Full Episode Transcript
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JJ: Kia ora e te whānau, and welcome to Kaitui Kōrero. Today, we're chatting with indie author Claire Butler who brings complex, flawed characters to life while weaving important social themes into her pukapuka. Claire is all about breaking stereotypes, championing diverse voices, and creating characters that truly resonate with readers.
Claire's books are fast-paced, full of emotion, and impossible to put down. We'll kōrero about the highs and lows of indie publishing, what it's like to challenge the norm, and why she loves being an indie author. So grab a cuppa, get comfy, and let's dive in.
[INTRO MUSIC]
JJ: Kia ora and welcome, Claire! Today, we have got Claire Butler talking to us. So, Claire, can you share a bit about your journey into indie publishing?
CB: Yes, thank you for having me. I suppose my journey into indie publishing went very similarly to a lot of authors in the sense that I tried the traditional publishing route first. So, I like most, I suppose have always been writing, and in my late teens, early 20s wrote a lot of books, and you know what would go through the process of editing them, and then as soon as I was happy with it, I would send it out to the big five publishing companies on there. And I would send it out to the big five publishing companies on there.
And I would send it out to the big five publishing companies on their unsolicited manuscript days and spent months writing query letters and whatnot. And once that was done, you know, I sent it out into the universe with my best wishes and moved on to writing the next manuscript, so I did that for several years. And obviously, nothing came from that; a lot of slush piles and rejection emails. After a year, then I put my writing on hold for, you know, career, marriage, kids. It wasn't until, like, I published first in April 2023, so 2022, it might have been earlier that 2021, actually, when my youngest child was three months old, so I was on maternity leave. She was a good sleeper, so she'd sleep for like, uh, three-hour stretches during the day and I was bored, and so I wanted to tap back into writing because it had been several years; I missed it, and I just think, like most mothers, wanted to tap back into something that was authentically me, that would bring me happiness, uh, something that was like mine, my little corner of the world. So I began writing again, and I didn't plan it; I didn't plot it; I didn't know that I was writing a book; it was more like just just tap back into that part of your soul again, you know, just put words on a page. Write scene to scene, write whatever makes you happy what you want to in that day, and I ended up writing to reclaim a kingdom.
I got to the end of it, and I was like, 'Great!' And then I was steering down the barrel of what I had always done, which was the two to three months of you know uh submitting it to the the trad houses and and writing query letters. And I just for the life of me could not bring myself to do it. I think, like most mums, our time is precious; we have very little energy left. Um, so whatever we do kind of puts ourselves into, you want to be assured that you're going to get something out of it right, and I just knew that there was no point like it would end up in the slush pile. I just couldn't do it, and I had heard about indie publishing, but I didn't know what it was, what that meant. So I then went down a rabbit hole literally for about nine months where I researched the heck out of Indie publishing. It became a bit like an obsession for me every day, just like reading articles and listening to podcasts and, you know, looking at the data to try and figure out what it was. But also, what I would need to do if I wanted to go down that route, like what it would cost me financially. What’s the time? How much time would I have to put into this? Like, what would I need to do to be at least semi-successful in order to make, like, an informed decision about whether this something I want to do, um, so yeah. So after the nine months of driving myself half insane with that, I decided to take the plunge and, yeah, publish 'To Reclaim a Kingdom' in April 2023.
JJ: It must have felt quite freeing, though not doing the putting it together and sending it away, and then waiting and waiting.
CB: I was so relieved; like, I never waited by the phone when I sent the manuscripts. It's kind of like, you know, if they're not into you know? [laughing] I didn't wait by the phone, but it was, yeah, like I just knew, I just knew that nothing was going to change, um, the traditional publishing is very hard to crack into. What I hadn't realised was the change in the landscape of publishing that had happened in the past like five years. At that point, things had really changed, and the indie publishing industry had just exploded. So, I think really for me it was just good timing as well.
JJ: I think that's one of the one of the good things that came out of the likes of COVID
CB: yes.
JJ: That people were sitting at home and they they didn't have a job to do or they didn't have anything to do and had so much time on their hands; they sat down and they wrote, then one thing led to another people started saying well why can't I just put it out myself.
CB: yes
JJ: It's quite amazing to see how many indie authors have popped up out of the woodworks and how many of them are being picked up by traditional publishers
CB: Oh, it’s amazing, isn’t it? And I love the fact that the indie industry is now shaping what we read because, you know, for so long, the traditional companies were gatekeeping what was deemed popular. What was deemed you know the next big thing. And with indie publishing coming on and bringing in all these new genres like indie publishing, we created romantasy. You know and look at romantasy now. It's huge, so, so yeah, I really love that these little uh niches now are becoming popular because that's what readers want; they want something different,
JJ: They want something that will help them escape the reality that we live in [laugh]
CB: Yes, yeah.
JJ: That man coming through the door or that woman coming through the door or that, what are they called, uh Wolverine coming through the door, like this, you never know what you're gonna get. But it's the fact that people can sit down, pick up a book and escape reality.
CB: yes
JJ: and it's just amazing the amount of books you can do that. With now,
CB: Yes, yeah, and I mean the talent, oh my goodness! So, before I became an indie author, I hadn't, obviously, read indie authors. But when I, yeah, decided to become one, obviously, I immersed myself in indie books, and I was just blown away by the talent. I rarely read traditional now; not not saying that they're like traditional authors aren't talented-they are. But, I think that a couple of years ago, there was this inherent bias that trad authors were, you know, the only good authors, which is so not true,
JJ: Definitely not. I totally agree with you. I find that there's a lot of stigma behind being an indie author and it's something that is, I think, it's starting to break now. And it has been for the last year or two where people don't worry if you've published independently; it doesn't mean your book is bad, yeah. It means that you've got the ability to sit down and write a book, publish a book, sell the book, and tell your story how you want it told, not how the traditional publisher wants you to tell it.
CB: Yes, I think there are pros and cons to both;
JJ: Oh, absolutely!
CB: But yeah, I agree: the bias, I mean, some of it's still there, we still have a bit of a way to go, but it is breaking down, and that's just glorious to see.
JJ: Yeah. I think it will always be there for some people. People who believe that, oh, they have to be well-educated; they have to be an academic; they have to have written so many books and had so many publishers and blah blah blah. But I think the best part of picking up an indie book is that you can relate to the person who wrote it- usually it's just like picking up something your friend's written, sitting down and enjoying it.
CB: Yes
JJ: How did you actually get into writing fantasy romance or romantasy?
CB: It's funny because I think when I've had to reclaim a kingdom like the draft of a book, To reclaim a kingdom, and I decided I was going to be an indie author and I was going to Self-publish this book. I looked at it and I was like, well, what's the genre? Like I hadn't thought about it before then, but I was like, right, I have to market this; I have to say what genre it is, and I wasn't very familiar with all the different genres out there, um, so I had to go searching and be like, what's my book like?
It's interesting because there's a bit of a debate, I suppose, about the definition of fantasy romance or romantic fantasy or romantasy. There's a lot of debate out there; it can get quite heated, theres not agreement. So, I define what I write as fantasy romance because I feel like the main kind of plot line is the romance plot. I do write fantasy, and there is fantasy elements in my book, but I'm not an epic fantasy author. My fantasy is very subtle; if I could say that. The magic systems are usually elemental, and whilst I do have world building, it's not heavy. So I tend to see my books either in the fantasy romance or as romantasy, which I see as kind of like a 50/50 split. I know other people would disagree though. I have had people slide into my DMs and be like, 'No, your books are this and I'm like, 'Okay, well, like it doesn't matter really. It's got fantasy; it's got romance I hope you enjoy it [laughing].
JJ: Honestly, I wouldn't even consider there to be a difference sometimes. Because it depends what you pick the book up for.
CB: yeah yeah, and it depends what you define it as.
JJ: yeah absolutely. It's like if it's a romantasy, it's definitely led by the romance, but it's a very fantasy-based book, yes in my opinion
CB: It's got both elements, yeah because I've had readers say both things they're like "no it's romantic fantasy"," no it's fantasy romance" and I'm like just just enjoy,
JJ: yeah absolutely. It's just a merge of the two words, yeah no I don't I don't see I don't see the genre as being it is this or that it can always be a blend so yeah it's all how you pick it up and what you get from it I think.
CB: absolutely I think that that's. very true, it's very subjective what people say is the main plot line or what they get from it yeah
JJ: you've written two series now, the Redwood Duology and the Divine Tapestry Series. Would you tell us a little bit about them?
CB: So, the Redwood Series is my first series that I wrote, so book one, To Reclaim A Kingdom, and book two, To Reforge A Destiny, so it's a duology, it's new adult, fantasy romance. So, like the main characters are, um, I think Brielle's uh 19 and and Henry's in his early 20s, and it's set in a medieval inspired fantasy world. It's basically the story of two rulers, we have the reluctant prince Henry who really doesn't want to rule, he's our party prince and He's got a very kind of controlling father.Aand then we've got Brielle, who's uh the princess of the southern kingdom, and she has been raised very quite spoiled and sheltered, but she's very driven and she cannot wait to be queen. And so we have very the two characters are very opposite. The storyline goes that like through a series of events they both lose their kingdoms; a foreign ruler comes in, war ensues, and they both lose their kingdoms and have to flee for their lives.
So it kind of follows their characters on a journey through Brielle wants to reclaim her Kingdom and Henry doesn't, Henry sees this as the best thing ever; he's got his freedom. But their stories entwine, and uh there is a hot outlaw character that we get to meet, and we get a sentinel forest as well that they escape into. There's blood magic, uh there's enemies-to-lovers, to enemies, found family, there's banter, you know all the favourite tropes. It's very fast-paced writing; my writing is very fast-paced and lots of adventure, but also lots of heart, and I write very character-focused books, so the arc that they both have, the journey of growth that they both go through is quite immense, so that's just a lot of fun that series.
You know it's been like into like a bit of Robin Hood, a bit of like the nostalgic classics that we we all grew up on, which I think is like a lovely compliment. And then uh, the Divine Tapestry series is following. I'm trying not to give too many spoilers away, but it follows a main character, well really two, um from the Redwood series into a completely new world, Morovia, and follows that character's journey as they kind of navigate their new world uh, and the court politics there. They go through a sexual awakening so they they discover their Bisexuality and it's just, yeah, it's a really good time as well, but exploring it from a different world, so we've got like the MMF romance, so we've got um, the two male characters have a romantic plot with each other and then we have a courtesan that kind of comes in and disrupts that, we have yeah, courtesans, assassins, political intrigue, we have a deadly trial and we have the one camel trope, uh, which is something that I, yeah, I kind of invented by mistake. [laughing] it's it, I love the one horse trope, uh, and that's in the Redwood series, I love the one bed trope. Love the 'one horse' trope, and so when I came to marketing the um of Sand and Silk which is uh book one of the Divine Tapestry series I was thinking of the tropes and I'm like oh uh yeah I can't do that because they're on camels, and then I'm oh well I'll just create a one camel trope and I thought it was hilarious and everyone else seemed to think so as well because it actually became one of the biggest marketing things for the book that has worked so well people have actually seen that and know nothing else about the series and will pick the series up because of the one camel trope, yeah my readers have absolutely run with it.
JJ: Oh, that's brilliant! And you've got the next installment coming out in January,
CB: yeah It released on the 18th of January, so when was that... uh, last week I think, yeah. Of Sky and Ember's book two, so that kind of wraps up the uh the main characters' love stories and arc. Yeah, it's lovely to have it out there.
JJ: Yeah, feel a bit of relief with pushing that publish button?
CB: yes, yeah. It was meant, I had hoped to have it done by October of last year, but you know life was lifing so uh, it got pushed back a bit, so yeah. I was definitely relieved to put it out in the world and to have it have such a a warm reception from readers and really good yeah feedback and ratings and everything there's always a relief as an author.
JJ: I can imagine yeah. So, the Divine Tapestry series going by camels, uh it's Middle Eastern inspired world. What drew you to that setting? How did you approach the cultural elements?
CB: I suppose kind of going back to why I did that. There was some lines in the Redwoods series that spoke about Merovia, really throw away lines because I had no intention of writing the Divine Tapestry series, I had moved on to something else but my readers were like what about this character from the Redwoods series, like we want to know what happened to them and I was like, 'Well, I don't know, uh but I could write it if there's enough interest' and there was so I was like, 'Okay, it looks like I'm writing this book.' And so I had to look go back and be like, 'What did I say about this this country that this character goes to?' And yeah, I just had a few lines and it talked about that it was like this desert country and that was divided into these five kingdoms that were ruled by five kings.
It sounded like a very kind of a Middle Eastern inspired world which made sense to me because I love the Middle East. I've been very fortunate enough to travel in my life and I absolutely fell in love over there. My favourite country, to visit was Turkey. and I just love the history and the culture and the language, and so I think that obviously unintentionally was what I was talking about, and so when I came to write the book, I was like okay, I'm going to use my my knowledge and my love of these places to inspire a world to take elements from Turkey and from Asia and from you know Arabic cultures and kind of like use that to inspire me.
So, I did, I created this world of Merovia; I knew that I had to even though I like to kind of remind people though because there is a lot of sensitivity around you know this topic and I like to remind people that it is inspired by, at the end of the day, it is its own fantasy world. I'm not trying to represent a country; I'm not from that country, but yeah, I suppose I am mindful of being sensitive to any kind of representations of different cultures. I'm fortunate enough that I have a few readers of mine that have been with me from the start, actually from the Redwood series, who come from those countries and I touched base with them as I was creating this world as I was writing these books, and even when it came to marketing. I said, 'Look, you know, can I just run everything by you' essentially to see if there's anything that I'm you know unintentionally uh that could be misconstrued I suppose and and offend people and any advice and kind of feedback they gave, 100% took on. yeah so that kind of helped me navigate those waters so I'm very very fortunate to have those people kind of helping me and and guiding me they they knew uh we did we'd spoken actually about my love um for the Middle East in before I wrote the Divine Tapestry series so I think they understood the place that I was coming from.. They just loved seeing the the world that I created really and the the elements and that they could relate to yeah yeah
JJ: it's Brilliant that they were able to help you out and willing to as well, it's got to be hard sometimes to to blend your inspiration without offending reality into your story, yeah it's great that you've got those readers who are able to help you out with that.
CB: I'm very grateful for them because yeah I did have occasional people slide into my DMs and and stuff like that but I can only do my due diligence and and you know kind of explain where I'm coming from and yeah but I was eternally grateful to them, I ran everything past them and and they were just they loved seeing it. I think a lot of fantasy and fantasy romance are based On Western ideas, I suppose Western uh inspired worlds and so this is very different and I think they appreciated that and they could feel the love and the care that I put into writing it so yeah I think it can be difficult but it's also worth doing because we need to see different representations of different worlds and cultures and ways of thinking.
JJ: absolutely. it's good to see that there is more representation. I've found that with the indie community growing so much you've now got a lot more variety in terms of cultures and locations that books are set in um so you've got a lot more variety and representation in those areas.
CB: So, important, yeah .
JJ: it's great to see culture grow. I love it.
CB: yeah, me too!
JJ: That actually brings us nicely into our next question. Your books feature social commentary on gender issues, sexuality, war, and religion, alongside diverse representation. Yes, why are the themes important to you as a writer and how do you balance them in your stories?
CB: I suppose answering the first question, I mean these themes are just so important; we as people, we deal with them every single day, and I think artists, in no matter what form your art is in, whether that's, you know, painting or music or or writing, I think artists kind of have a unique opportunity to explore social issues because we can do it in a way that is less confronting I suppose if we write about religion or gender issues or even class issues cultural issues in the context of a fantasy world you know we're not really offending anyone and we're not kind of people feel less defensive I think when reading that but the message is more likely to get across of hey like there's probably you know something there's something wrong with these separate class systems or you know there is a difference between religion and faith or the impact of gender inequality what that looks like you know sexualised violence so I think you know, artists we have that opportunity, and I think for me, I've always felt very strongly about these issues.
I've dealt with a lot of these issues in my life; I've seen the people that I love deal with these issues, and so as an author, I feel a responsibility to explore those issues within my books. Sometimes, I feel like this is the only way really that some readers can feel seen as well. I've had a lot of my readers reach out to me and say that what they've read in my books, in terms of the social commentary, really touched them and made them feel seen and gave them permission to feel what they're feeling and to feel outraged. and to question things, and they're able to share their experiences with me, and I don't know, it just there's that opportunity to really connect and to challenge people's thinking in a way that yeah, it's not so much uh yeah like in their face I suppose, and I think that comes back to your second question about how do you balance that with storytelling? It's hard because you don't want to preach, like I'm not trying to preach, but yeah, I think it's about weaving the message subtly within the characters and the story and the dialogue. There will be readers that read my books, that love my books because they're just a good time, and then there will be other readers that actually look a bit deeper and get the messages, and will think about the storylines, and that's fine to be either one of them. But yeah, I think it's important to find that balance so that you're not preaching.
JJ: That's really interesting. I feel like the whole preaching thing is-if you have a conversation with someone quite often people do think that you're preaching if you've got a different opinion, yes, um, very likely you're not, but it's just the way the human mind works. If someone's telling me their opinion and I'm not going to accept it, they're trying to indoctrinate me. But in books, you can take the message you want to take, yes,
CB: absolutely
JJ: or take the message you need, yeah. So I like that, that's really good.
CB: I've often started reading a book and I'll have an opinion one way and then by the end of the book I'm not so sure anymore, you know. And I love that. I love when art in like TV series or movies or books or paintings kind of like challenges you to think differently or to yeah challenge your biases or open your mind to to different ways you know of seeing the world, so yeah. As long as I can do that, the reader can take whatever they want to take from what I create.
JJ: So you do create some very complex and flawed characters like you know human beings are um how do you go about crafting such layered characters?
CB: That is true I'm very upfront um about my characters, especially in the Redwood series to reclaim a kingdom. Brielle is probably my most controversial character, she is I suppose what you would call an "unlikable female character" and I say that with like quotation marks around it because yeah that that term is just you know it irks me. But she's she's controversial because she's not your typical female main character, she's you know especially in the fantasy genre I see a lot of female characters that you know they're strong and sassy but they're usually like like trained assassins. Or you know these amazing warriors or they're the chosen one or have magic, and usually like they're strong but they have a heart of gold and and there's nothing wrong with those characters but I like to write potentially characters that challenge that mold and so, Brielle is spoiled and selfish and she's like the mean girl at the beginning of to reclaim a kingdom and I had so many readers reach out to me and were like 'I have never hated a character more in my life like she is so Irritating, I wanted to shove her off a cliff', and I had other people who, like, left reviews, and they were like, 'Nah, DNF this book, I couldn't stand her' and that's fine, but the ones that kind of you know stuck it out, it was interesting to me because by the end of 'To Reclaim a Kingdom', by the end of the book, they were rooting for her; they were like, 'She has been wronged, and she's gonna bring it' and I was like, 'That is so interesting'. I think you know that that's obviously the power of you know good storytelling, and that we can evoke such strong feelings about a fictional character. But also, I think it's important that we see more of these Female characters who aren't perfect, you know, who make selfish decisions and make mistakes, and have to go through like a period of growth, and they don't choose to fight because they're like these amazing fighters.
She has no magic, she has no training, she's terrified. But I think it's important that we see more of these female characters, and I think it's important that we see more of these female characters. And I think she has her convictions, you know, and so she has to rely on like those and and her sense of right and wrong as she grows, and bravery. So I'd like to see more characters like that and I like to see more. characters who are really flawed and there's no kind of like good decision I love exploring moral dilemmas and looking at it and I think it's important that we see more of these female characters from different angles. I think how you create characters like that you have to be quite intentional in how you write them because I knew I got to the end of to reclaim a kingdom and when I was thinking about publishing I was like oh Brielle is going to be the reason I think why a lot of people don't read this book she's not palatable she's not commercial do you know what I mean and so I did have a moment where I was like oh should I rewrite Her and that lasted all of about 60 seconds, to be honest with you. Because I was like, you know what? Women have been told throughout our lives to be smaller and to be more palatable and to be softer and to be quieter and to be more perfect and to be prettier and to be nicer, you know. And I was like, I am not silencing my character. You know, yeah! I do think it takes bravery and it takes being intentional um and acknowledging that, you know these characters if you write them this way they're not going to be for everyone, and to be okay with that. But I also think it's very important to have complex, flawed characters because as you say We are them, you know, like we're looking back on you like my life there have been times when I've been like oh, I'm not I've been selfish and mean and made mistakes, and you know, I like to think that I'm a kind good person, but we all have bad days and we all go through periods of our life that where we grow, and I think it's important to see representation about that in books.
JJ: Absolutely, the one word that comes to mind when you're explaining is relatable. She sounds 100% relatable, like that is me. I can grasp onto that character and grow with that character.
CB: yes, absolutely, especially when you understand where that comes From with her. As I said, she was like she grew up very sheltered and in a very spoiled environment, so she doesn't really understand the world. But she also grew up in a place where you know it was very patriarchal, and so women got their power from their beauty. And from kind of grasping uh and putting other people down, so that they could get as much power as possible. So of course she's very you know self-focused, and she's, but she's she's driven because she wants to, she sees that, and she wants to kind of get a power that no one can question so yeah I think I certainly uh related to her character and and I think you know a lot of my readers said like by the end of the Redwood series with both her and Henry's character, the fact that they started at such a an unlikable place I suppose meant that their arc was that much more interesting to watch and the other thing I found really quite telling was that Henry's character is very whilst they have like what Henry doesn't want to be a ruler and Braille does their personalities are very similar like he is the male version of Braille and yet he didn't cop the criticism right um I I never had anyone slide into my DMs And say 'ugh, Henry couldn't stand him'. So yeah, I do find that quite telling as well.
JJ: It's something that's becoming, what's always has been very prominent, and it is-gender roles, yeah it is. How women in men are perceived, and what is okay for one is not okay for the other, but in reality we're all human.
CB: yes absolutely
JJ: we're all going to make mistakes, we're all going to learn, we're all going to grow, and if you don't learn well you're going to be pretty miserable. Um yeah, but we're all human, you can't change that.
CB: no, and it doesn't make you a bad person for making mistakes or for wanting what you want.
JJ: That's interesting
CB: I really like the way that you've made your characters human, thank you, yeah, it's very important to me.
JJ: and now the worst question you're ever going to get is asking if you have a favourite child; do you have a favourite character?
CB: favourite character, oh that is so hard.
JJ: If you don't have one, that's fine.
CB: you know what I do think I'm gonna have to stick with Braille just because she was my first and she is so complex and I'm so proud of her, yeah, I think I'm gonna stick with Braille.
JJ: so the next little bit we're going to talk about your writing and your routine, uh, yep, and if you have one because some people don't.
CB: yeah, I do because. I'm so time poor, so yeah, because I'm like you, I work full-time, I have a nine-to-five, I have children, so I'm very time poor. I try and write every day; it's not always possible, so at night after the kids are in bed, I try to get two hours in before I go to bed. Sometimes that's taken up by business stuff, so uh, you know, marketing admin, but I mean that's all very important. But yeah, I do try to um, write every day where I can. I get slightly more time on the weekends; I try and sneak the extra hour in where possible, but yeah, I'd say that's my uh, routine. I don't write to music, I wish I could um, I do have a playlist for my books but I can't listen and write at the same time, I get really easily distracted.
I don't have a fancy office or room; I'm literally sitting in my maternity chair which is in my bedroom and that's where I write because that's my corner, I don't have anywhere else and I don't plot. It sounds terrible, I literally write scene to scene which can be quite nerve-wracking sometimes.
JJ: Well, it means you're learning the story with us.
CB: Yes. Well, it is interesting because I, I have a pattern or so my readers tell me of like book one of my series is You really focused on character development and a little bit of introduction to the world, and all of that. And then I tend to leave book one on an epic like plot twist cliffhanger, and then book two just kind of like barrels out of the gates, and it's non-stop action, and that's where the fantasy really takes off, and everything really kind of ramps up. I think it kind of helps that I don't plot, because I never see my plot twists coming, and neither does my reader until I've actually written them.
JJ: Well, that's brilliant; it's keeping yourself on your toes.
CB: Right?! because I often say that they can, they never see it coming, and I'm Like, yeah, neither did I.
JJ: well it keeps them hooked though doesn't it? It's a good way to keep people hooked and that's a sign of a good book is one that you don't want to put down.
CB: yes, and that is something that my readers say that they binge them, oh my god, they binge them in like 24 hours which is such a compliment. I do write fast-paced books because as a reader I get bored really easily it sounds terrible but I need a book that's very fast-paced so yeah, naturally I, my, my books are usually you know, no more than you know, 400, 450 uh pages, so not very long at all,
JJ: I think that's great. I find that different days of the week, I will read different. Things so, if I'm feeling like I want to switch off, I don't want to think about anything. I'll read a soppy romance because they follow a very specific pattern. They're all different but they do follow a very specific pattern and at the end you know they're going to be okay, yes. And then when I really want to read something that I want to make my mind work, I'll read something like your book or a thriller or um sometimes a horror if I'm feeling really crazy not not very often so it is it's amazing how different days of the week you can have a different book you want to read because you're in a different genre to scratch that itch.
CB: yeah you're in a different mood yeah and that's amazing. That we have such diversity in literature that we can, yeah, meet that need on any given day.
JJ: and the diversity I'm going to say it is coming from the indie authors because
CB: yes it is.
JJ: it's brilliant, I love it. You've actually answered my next question about plotting, okay, um but as an indie author what have been some of your biggest challenges and some of your proudest moments so far?
CB: Oh, biggest challenge I think I'd have to say marketing to be honest, trying to get your book seen, yeah, finding your readers it's so hard, you know. A lot of the time you feel like you're throwing spaghetti at the wall and if something works, like if something goes has a lot of views or you all of a sudden you get like a spike in your reads you're kind of like oh what did that and do more of that and so you try and figure that out and uh a lot of the time it just you don't know you don't know if what you're doing is having an impact so you really kind of rely on other people telling you like your readers reaching out or people reaching out and being like oh I've seen your book everywhere or you know I really enjoy it or bookstores inquiring if they can stock it and stuff like that so yeah I would say marketing is a huge challenge and you never kind of yeah know if what you're doing is working And you never feel like you're doing enough, like there's not enough hours in the day, in terms of successes. I think was it was your second part?
JJ: proudest moments.
CB: proudest moment I would have to say when my readers slide into my DMs and just gush about the book; um, when they are able to kind of like yeah go deeper and and see the messages that I'm trying to convey or if something particularly stuck with them and meant something to them. If they had a really strong emotional reaction to the book or did something that happened in the book-if it got them through a really tough time. I've had a few people kind of reach out to me and say like Oh, and share their experiences with me, yeah, that means the absolute world to me. Like they've brought me to tears before, just yeah, sharing what my books mean to them.
That is why I write, to be honest. I really don't care if I never become a bestseller or you know if my books never get picked up traditionally or I never get like a banner on Amazon, any of that. It's more to write really good books, like each book that I write, to be better than the one before. But also to have readers that connect with my work and to have my work mean something to others because I've felt that, like I've read books and absolutely fallen in love with them and Re-read them, and I've felt like I've become a better person, and I've become a better person to death; go back to them as comfort reads when I'm going through hard times.
And what an honour if my books are that for someone-you know that's the point isn't it of being a writer? So yeah, I'd have to say that couldn't have put it better myself.
JJ: So our next question is about marketing; how do you approach marketing your books and how has being part of Kindle Unlimited shaped your readership?
CB: With dread, do I approach marketing like most indie authors? Oh, it's such a complicated topic! So when I deep-dived for nine months into what it takes to be an indie author I have to say the majority of it was on marketing and oh my god was it overwhelming there there is so much that you can do and like I say I think it's easy to get overwhelmed with marketing and I think it's easy to get overwhelmed with marketing so what I have done is I've chosen two main platforms so Instagram is my the platform that I'm most comfortable on so that's my kind of main platform is my page there I'm also on booktok, less comfortable on booktok but recognise the power that is booktok. so those are the two kind of platforms that I focus my marketing on I try and post their Instagram three times a week TikTok usually about two times a week and do what I'm comfortable in doing, I'm not very comfortable in showing my face so I'm not going to do many 'you know' reels or things like that. But find something that you are comfortable with and see what works as well. So I think one of the biggest learning curves for me when I started was joining the bookstagram community.
I had no idea this community existed, so I joined and oh my god, what I learned in a year about the bookstagram community! What is important to them? What they like in books... you know. Once you understand that, once you understand your readers and what they like, then It's about kind of targeting them with what you can offer them, what's unique about your books, and what are they going to like about your books initially. I did try a few different things, um, like Amazon ads and and promos and stuff like that didn't find a lot of success with them again, that could be a me problem. Um, like I, Amazon ads it's a lot to learn, so perhaps that is something that I will invest more time in in the future but yeah I think for me being present on Bookstagram and Booktok and getting to know my readers and building those genuine relationships with them writing books that I know that they will like.
Word off mouth is the most powerful marketing tool, honestly it cannot be understated. So if you find your people and your people are active in spreading the word about your books, that that is gold. So I try and put a lot more time and energy into that
JJ: and it's free.
CB: it's free, who'd have thought? And you do see that like I've in the times that I've seen, like spikes in my sales or follows or page reads, and I know myself that actually haven't done anything in the last couple of days. So you're like someone has said something somewhere, you know, like in a Facebook group or in a book club, because there's just no other explanation, uh, readers. Are powerful, absolutely yeah.
JJ: Just watching the Booktok community and the bookstagram community grow over the last few years has been quite amazing,
CB: yeah, massive. And I would say, like Kindle Unlimited, uh, you asked how it shaped my readership for me because I did consider that, that is a big decision for any indie author whether to go wide or whether to go exclusive with KU and again I did my due diligence, I researched it, I looked at the data, and the high percentage of fantasy romance readers are in and do have Kindle Unlimited subscriptions so for me it just kind of made sense to be in that community and see how it went, and it's its good uh because you know that you go through periods where your sales are down, but the page reads kind of get you through so I don't think I'll be leaving anytime soon.
I also think there's a bit of a trend out there that people like to try before they buy; you know, I'm like that-I will i have Kindle Unlimited and I will read books on there, and then if I love it, I will buy a book trophy, which is very much like the Bookstagram community. So I feel like there may be a disadvantage to authors who aren't in KU, but again, it depends on your genre; there's certain genres that not a lot of readers are in KU and you're better off going wide, so yeah I'd say do your research, I suppose. If you're an indie author struggling with that question, yeah,
JJ: and a lot of people have been moving over from Kindles to Kobo's recently because the Kobo colors are actually really good. I've got one myself; I do really enjoy it. I'm one of these people who actually has both, and both subscriptions.
CB: yeah, a lot of people are like that.
JJ: because Kobo offers a subscription now too, they do. Same price, yep! And you can do the same thing, and it's actually if you don't buy the trophies significantly cheaper in the long run, but I do also buy the trophies, so yeah, my grocery shop is Always very low-
CB: priorities [laughing]
JJ: books are more important!
CB: yeah, definitely
JJ: going on that. What advice would you give to authors considering taking the indie publishing route, especially in your genre?
CB: I would say do your research, always, always, I think there is a temptation to just kind of you know think that you can write a really good book and put it out there and hope that it'll take off, you know. It takes a lot to get your book seen and to build a community of readers, yeah, there's a lot to get your head around as an indie author, so I would say please, please do your research see what it takes and see if you're kind of willing to invest. All that on the agreement that you know it might not work, you know I think we have to go into this going, you know what I'm going to try my best and if nothing comes of it that's fine, so but yeah just do your research. I would probably say again, know your audience because I don't think I did at the beginning; be familiar with the bookstagram community, be familiar with the booktok community, get to know everyone, build your following even before you publish if you can.
Get to know what's important to them, what they look for in books, what they like to make posts about, what are their favourite tropes so that you can kind of it's a fine balance. between finding your unique voice telling your unique story but also hitting the plot points you need to hit you know the the favourite tropes that the things that make your book uh marketable uh to your readers i hear a lot of authors kind of say but i want to write something completely different that's fine find your own voice but you also kind of have to find a balance you know and uh the other probably point i would say is be discerning about where you put your time and money because there's a lot of people out there that try to take advantage of indie Authors and there's a lot of things that we could spend our money on. but it's costly to self-publish, and so be discerning on where you put your time and effort, you know, know what's important. You know, having a beautiful cover and having a good editor those are the two things that I just won't compromise on. And that's not to say that you need to spend a fortune on those two things either. But yeah, those are probablythe three tips that I would give anyone kind of considering jumping in to being self-published.
JJ: Excellent, those are definitely things people should adhere to.So in your writing life, what authors or stories Have influenced your writing?
CB: I would have to say. When I started thinking about being an indie author. I looked to see if there was any indie authors in Perth, Im' from Perth, Western Australia, and I found inspiration from Jay Brie, who's um quite a popular author. She started out indie and she's from Perth so I read her books and she's amazing and I thought wow this is this is good this is what I want in terms of my writing style.
I love lyrical writing; I wouldn't say that I'm necessarily a lyrical writer, but I take inspiration from That and I do try to write beautiful lines throughout my book as well, and I suppose when I think of a favourite lyrical writer, uh, Tahereh Mafi, I will forever go back to her books. She writes like poetry, and I remember picking up her book before she became huge and I just it was it was so different to anything I'd ever read before, and I remember looking at the critique comments and people it was kind of like split down the middle: we had the people that really loved that way of writing, and you had the people that were like, 'What does she think she's doing?' Writing poetry?' I was like, 'You know what? Good on her. This is her Debut book, and it is different to anything that I've read, and it is so beautiful, and I cannot tell you how many times I've reread that book, so I suppose I take yeah a lot of inspiration from her. One of my other favourite books of all time is A Song of Achilles. I love historical retellings and Greek mythology. But what I really love about that book is not only the MM romance in it, but also it has a lot of beautiful lines as well. Now that I think about it, but it just evoked such emotion from me absolutely broke my heart, and that's not easy to do. I don't have a lot of emotional reactions to books or movies or anything, so if something gets me i will rave about it um and i you know i would love for my books to have that kind of an impact on people uh and when i hear that it has you know that that just absolutely makes my day uh when they say 'you know your book made me laugh, your book made me scared and it made me cry' and i love that, i love that books can take us on that journey and make us feel that deeply so yeah if i can kind of combine those those authors and and their work i i'd be pretty doing pretty well.
JJ: well i think you're you're getting there yeah i mean to have that many people Comment and say that you've you've really impacted them just from your writing alone, I think that is it's a sign that you're you're on the right path,
CB: yes it is it's it's lovely to hear. If anyone is ever questioning whether to reach out to an indie and actually you know gush to them or say how much their book ran to them, please don't question it into the dms, you know it it makes our day it absolutely does,
JJ: and there's nothing worse than sending something out into the ether and then never hearing back no never hearing how it's impacted people.
CB: no because we don't know we don't know what impact we're having on people unless people tell us,JJ:
JJ: beyond of sky and Embers, your latest book; what can readers look forward to next? Do you have any other projects that you can talk about?
CB: Oh yes, I do. I'm about fifty thousand words into my next book which is going to be an interconnected standalone uh set in the Divine Tapestries world uh yeah I can't say a lot about it because I don't want to kind of spoil anything for people that haven't read the Divine Tapestry series yet but anyone who who loved that series and who's uh yeah been with me from the start has kind of been asking for a book like this. Currently writing now um so give the readers what I what they want I say um so that will be coming out. this year i'm hoping for around a june july release
JJ: it's exciting any camels?
CB: yeah camels the one camel trope will never die.
JJ: i love it it's just it's just amazing i love it
CB: it works surprisingly.
JJ: uso i do have a couple of fun questions for you i think you've already answered the first one what's your favorite fictional trope
CB: uh enemies to lovers to enemies
JJ: oh so it's not the one camel
CB: like i'm very proud of that but you know that that can only be found in my books i don't think that it's in any other books so um yeah if i see an enemies to lovers to enemies like i love a good enemies to lovers but if you have the enemies i mean there's just Something special about that.
JJ: Absolutely, yeah, there's a little bit of spice in there, yeah. Do you have a dream author collaboration?
CB: Dream author collab, um, Daniel L Jensen, yeah, I would have to say her, she's amazing, uh, the Bridge Kingdom series, yeah, I really love her writing, uh, very fast-paced, yeah, I just love that series, I'd love to work with her,
JJ: maybe we'll see it in the future, you never know, never know.
CB: I would be happy just to meet her. I had a reader of mine actually, and we were both she knew how much I, I really love Daniel's work, uh, and she lives in uh Canada, uh, this reader and she messaged me and she was like 'I'm going to a Daniel signing And I was like, 'Oh my god, amazing! Uh, you know, tell me how it goes. Let me live vicariously through you.' And you're like, 'She went and she sent me photos and I was like, that's amazing.' Then she sent me something unbeknownst to me, uh, it was a signed art piece that she'd had Daniel sign for me, uh, and she sent it all the way from Canada for me. So yeah, like, the sweetest thing, yeah. It's in pride of place on my bookshelves.
JJ: that's brilliant. Tea or coffee while you're writing?
CB: Coffee, yeah, I'm a nice latte girl, yeah.
JJ: I can understand that. Favourite book you've read this year? That's kind of hard to answer. It's only been two weeks and I'm a slow reader.
CB: Actually, um, so I haven't even finished the first book that I've started this year, um, so I'll answer for last. I binged, binge-read her Feral Beasts series by EP Barley, who's another indie author, amazing, amazing series! I'm like her stalker, stalker, I preach, but I haven't slid into her DMs yet, but um, yeah, oh goodness, me go read that series, it's the best and the next book is coming out soon too. She just revealed the title and I think the cover's being revealed uh very soon as well, so we share a PA and um, my PA's seen her cover and I'm so jealous, she won't share it with me.
JJ: Oh, I love a good cover; they say don't judge a book by its cover, but i always, always judge a book by its cover.
CB: check out her covers they're stunning.
JJ: I just i'm in awe of how talented cover artists are, it's just how do you come up with these things like i've seen some that look like they've been embroidered yes it's just amazing and i'm like i'm so jealous
CB: yeah artists too like the artists that do their um artwork for us indies oh my god so so talented yeah.
JJ: this has been absolutely fantastic.
CB: it has there's some great questions i was so excited to to be able to talk these things and i'm just so honored to be on the podcast so thank you so much for having me
JJ: You're very welcome. Thank You so much for taking taking your time out of your busy schedule because I know you're busy, to tell us about your writing
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JJ: What an incredible Kōrero with Claire Butler. Ngā mihi nui Claire for sharing your journey insights and passion for storytelling. If you've loved this episode be sure to follow Kaitui Kōrero | Author Talks for more inspiring Kōrero with amazing indie authors. Ka kite ano. Keep writing, keep reading, and we'll Kōrero again soon.
